A versatile selection of video's you chose Ms.Leslie, to show the reality of the condition. One of the reason's I also was in so much support of "Senator" Obama, because like him, I am really die hard on elimination of nuclear arsenal's, and this race of arm's become's more and more destructive, and as long as we have them, there is alway's a chance we may/ can use them, period. What many dont realize ... is they seem to only factor in human life casualty ... however ... I also see it as very enviromentally damaging to have to resort to this, all life and nature on every level. I am confident as of now, we have the technologies to have more enviromentally friendly defense system's with the new technologies, we even are able to use drone's and other tech's unmanned, to stop armies without even killing them, or any permanent damage/ injuries to any life actually. Rest assured, the future will NOT have any of this. This continuation of this arm's race of nuclear weaponry can only be a mess, especially if and when we have to break it down and try to dispose of it properly, but there is alot of revenue in this defense also, and politic's still. The situation in Japan was sad .... Japan happen's to be at the top of my list of favourite countries and societies, because of their technological advancement's, and utilization of small amount's of land by human's ... as well as their robotic's especially, genetic engineering, etc .... and they like Germany, since them day's have became such great allies (Germany also one of my favourite nation's, although my Grandma Thora was a Jew, I look at her also as a German, just not by blood). In those day's .... the way we responded to war's in this type ... was harsh and direct ... and of course ... Japan's initial strategy was by attacking Pearl Harbour to immobilize our Navy, maybe not to kill million's of us, but certainly strategically cripple our mainline defense capabilties. Back in them day's ... the US had most of it's critical Naval defense territorial, there ... and the result's were devasting of our response ... although efficient ... but still sad.
BIG props to you Leslie.This is one of the taboo subjects, far worse than criticism of Israel.
Liberals revel in the slaughter of Japanese, and right wingers are orgasmic over the death of a quarter million mostly women, children and old people.
And it's not like the info is hidden.
Alperowitz's book is exhaustively sourced and cross-referenced. It's public record that virtually all of the top military brass were against it. As I recall George C. Marshall's battle plan, had there been an invasion, forecast 20K US casualties. I think Truman initially said it saved 250K US lives and through the years it became several million.
I know I sound angry, I am because it's so frustrating. People on both sides of the aisle readily acknowledge politicians lie. Nixon lied, Bush was a liar, Obama's a liar, all politicians are liars-except HST when he spoke about the uses of the atomic bomb. The single time in history a politician told the truth. No matter how much fact you present in rebuttal it has become received wisdom - it saved our boys. Bullshit. Japan was a fighter looking for a soft spot on the canvas at the time. They were a horrible imperial army, yata yata yata I know that, I also know thousands of children melted because HST didn't have the integrity to accept a Japanese conditional surrender allowing them to retain the emperor and the constitution - which we did anyway after the bombs were dropped.
It's like 90% + of the US public goes teabagger upon hearing the work 'Hiroshima'.
Frodo had the opportunity to attend a luncheon meeting with the last surviving member of the Enola Gay. He has written, in length, some time ago, about that meeting. In brief, he summarizes his feeling that he stood next to the living human being who has come closest to the Hand of God. "I don't know who to sock it to"
Nagasaki is breathtakingly beautiful, as it was the gateway to the Dutch and China for centuries.
Originally the target was Kokura, but that was covered in cloud, so they bombed Nagasaki instead. The bomb missed the prime targets and wiped out the Christian quarter. Most people don't know that....Nagasaki was the secondary target and it was a botched hit. Local farmers, who did not know much of what was going on in the world, believed the bomb was the gods pushing followers of the foreign god for attacking Japan.
I knew a couple of old people who witnessed the bombs. One was a man who as a child had been sent to the countryside to avoid US incendiary attacks, which killed far more people than both bombs and were aimed at breaking civilian morale as much as anything (and it had no effect whatsoever in that regard). He saw the flash and remembered it all those years later. That flash killed every one of his relatives.
My mother-in-law's father never returned from the war - died somewhere out in the wastes of the Pacific. She raised her young children alone in a ruined country with barely any food. The pictures of her and the young wide-eyed sailor that was her husband are in a special alcove where offerings are left each morning.
Not directly related, but an intersting aside: Kamikaze pilots were meant to shout out the emperor's name before their mission, but sometimes they shouted out O-ka-san instead, which means "momma...". They were near catatonic with terror.
Oso: I haven't read Alperowitz's book. To me, in the end it really doesn't matter what weapons are used. The end result is dreadful.
I've always heard that the bombs ended the war and therefore saved thousands of lives. But I've also heard that the war was ending anyway and the bombs were unnecessary. That's what I believe.
Of course the government had tested these bombs again and again but never in a populated area or an area of forests - of course - so I don't think anyone realized how horrific and devastating they would be.
Maybe if everyone the world over paused on Aug. 6 and 9 every year to remember, we wouldn't be so eager to go to war ever again - except the old farts.
Leslie, I hear you on everyone remembering the Aug 6 and 9th events, and also on the old farts - although I'm a member of the club I don't follow the charter :)
Magpie, such interesting comments and information, thank you.
Magpie: Amazingly I had heard that about Kokura and Nagasaki and I vaguely recall the Christian quarter was hit, not that that should make any difference imo.
Thanks for relating the part of your mother-in-law and the old couple. It adds another dimension and a personal touch.
I can't imagine any Kamakazi pilot wanting that assignment. I think if that had been me, I would have been screaming more than "momma." I also think if I had seen the flash, I would have died of a heart attack right there on the spot.
I believe I was in the 6th grade when we were assigned a paper to write and I decided on Hiroshima - probably because of all those silly drills where we had to climb under desks - as if that was going to "save" us. Anyway, I guess I'm still drawn to that horrific incident along with the Holocaust. Man's inhumanity to man.
It's quite clear to me that the reason for dropping the bombs on Japan was to show off our new toy to the Russians. The only condition the Japanese wanted was to preserve the Empreror. When we accepted their unconditional surrender we allowed the to preserve the Emperor.
Jesus, how can one trivialize the callous, horrific slaughters of over 200,000 people and the potential to destroy the planet in a more disdainful manner than “A royal straight flush?”
Well, I tend to agree with you guys. Infidel has a slightly different take, and while I may not completely agree with him here, I always respect his opinion.
Excuse me Ms.Leslie, this for Boomer Bob's reaction .... JZS,How can we triavilize hoorific and callous "slaughter's", etc ... you must be kidding here? This is reality ... when you have war, you have human's die ... if someone is going to try to invade you, or an attempt even like Pearl Harbour ... you respond. I'll tell you what can be hoorific to all of us .... the mentality that the human race at this point or past point in history is a loving fair species. As for Mr.Oso .... I dont see at all where Mr.Infidel is laying blame on muslim's of Hiroshima or Nagasaki ... not at all ... but that's just my view. Look at human history if you want to see real uncalloused action's of the species .... humnaity now, is "LESS" violent than it ever was in history, rest assured.
Oso: If you don't go there, you don't know what he wrote, so it really isn't fair to attack him or his post. And I'm not real comfortable with criticizing a fellow progressive on another's blog - a conservative is a different matter. You can chew 'em up and spit 'em out for all I care. Infidel is quite knowlegeable and I have a lot of respect for him whether or not I agree with him.
RC: We were attacked in WWII and the Japanese government was lying to our government up until the day they bombed Pearl Harbor. I have no problems, of course, with the U.S. retaliating. I do have a problem with bombing a civilian population when there is so much evidence showing that the war was going to end within a few weeks anyway. I do not see how bombing civilians can save thousands of our military lives.
A versatile selection of video's you chose Ms.Leslie, to show the reality of the condition. One of the reason's I also was in so much support of "Senator" Obama, because like him, I am really die hard on elimination of nuclear arsenal's, and this race of arm's become's more and more destructive, and as long as we have them, there is alway's a chance we may/ can use them, period. What many dont realize ... is they seem to only factor in human life casualty ... however ... I also see it as very enviromentally damaging to have to resort to this, all life and nature on every level. I am confident as of now, we have the technologies to have more enviromentally friendly defense system's with the new technologies, we even are able to use drone's and other tech's unmanned, to stop armies without even killing them, or any permanent damage/ injuries to any life actually. Rest assured, the future will NOT have any of this. This continuation of this arm's race of nuclear weaponry can only be a mess, especially if and when we have to break it down and try to dispose of it properly, but there is alot of revenue in this defense also, and politic's still. The situation in Japan was sad .... Japan happen's to be at the top of my list of favourite countries and societies, because of their technological advancement's, and utilization of small amount's of land by human's ... as well as their robotic's especially, genetic engineering, etc .... and they like Germany, since them day's have became such great allies (Germany also one of my favourite nation's, although my Grandma Thora was a Jew, I look at her also as a German, just not by blood). In those day's .... the way we responded to war's in this type ... was harsh and direct ... and of course ... Japan's initial strategy was by attacking Pearl Harbour to immobilize our Navy, maybe not to kill million's of us, but certainly strategically cripple our mainline defense capabilties. Back in them day's ... the US had most of it's critical Naval defense territorial, there ... and the result's were devasting of our response ... although efficient ... but still sad.
ReplyDeleteThank You for the selection Ms.Leslie ....
RC: Thanks. It's a pretty grim subject and I think all of us have a little trouble facing the reality of it.
ReplyDeleteBIG props to you Leslie.This is one of the taboo subjects, far worse than criticism of Israel.
ReplyDeleteLiberals revel in the slaughter of Japanese, and right wingers are orgasmic over the death of a quarter million mostly women, children and old people.
And it's not like the info is hidden.
Alperowitz's book is exhaustively sourced and cross-referenced. It's public record that virtually all of the top military brass were against it. As I recall George C. Marshall's battle plan, had there been an invasion, forecast 20K US casualties. I think Truman initially said it saved 250K US lives and through the years it became several million.
I know I sound angry, I am because it's so frustrating. People on both sides of the aisle readily acknowledge politicians lie. Nixon lied, Bush was a liar, Obama's a liar, all politicians are liars-except HST when he spoke about the uses of the atomic bomb. The single time in history a politician told the truth. No matter how much fact you present in rebuttal it has become received wisdom - it saved our boys. Bullshit. Japan was a fighter looking for a soft spot on the canvas at the time. They were a horrible imperial army, yata yata yata I know that, I also know thousands of children melted because HST didn't have the integrity to accept a Japanese conditional surrender allowing them to retain the emperor and the constitution - which we did anyway after the bombs were dropped.
It's like 90% + of the US public goes teabagger upon hearing the work 'Hiroshima'.
So props to you Leslie!
Frodo had the opportunity to attend a luncheon meeting with the last surviving member of the Enola Gay. He has written, in length, some time ago, about that meeting. In brief, he summarizes his feeling that he stood next to the living human being who has come closest to the Hand of God.
ReplyDelete"I don't know who to sock it to"
I have been to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
ReplyDeleteNagasaki is breathtakingly beautiful, as it was the gateway to the Dutch and China for centuries.
Originally the target was Kokura, but that was covered in cloud, so they bombed Nagasaki instead. The bomb missed the prime targets and wiped out the Christian quarter. Most people don't know that....Nagasaki was the secondary target and it was a botched hit. Local farmers, who did not know much of what was going on in the world, believed the bomb was the gods pushing followers of the foreign god for attacking Japan.
I knew a couple of old people who witnessed the bombs. One was a man who as a child had been sent to the countryside to avoid US incendiary attacks, which killed far more people than both bombs and were aimed at breaking civilian morale as much as anything (and it had no effect whatsoever in that regard). He saw the flash and remembered it all those years later. That flash killed every one of his relatives.
My mother-in-law's father never returned from the war - died somewhere out in the wastes of the Pacific. She raised her young children alone in a ruined country with barely any food. The pictures of her and the young wide-eyed sailor that was her husband are in a special alcove where offerings are left each morning.
Not directly related, but an intersting aside: Kamikaze pilots were meant to shout out the emperor's name before their mission, but sometimes they shouted out O-ka-san instead, which means "momma...". They were near catatonic with terror.
Oso: I haven't read Alperowitz's book. To me, in the end it really doesn't matter what weapons are used. The end result is dreadful.
ReplyDeleteI've always heard that the bombs ended the war and therefore saved thousands of lives. But I've also heard that the war was ending anyway and the bombs were unnecessary. That's what I believe.
Of course the government had tested these bombs again and again but never in a populated area or an area of forests - of course - so I don't think anyone realized how horrific and devastating they would be.
Maybe if everyone the world over paused on Aug. 6 and 9 every year to remember, we wouldn't be so eager to go to war ever again - except the old farts.
Frodo: Good story. I've read that many of the Enola Gay crew had horrible psychological fall-out for the rest of their lives.
ReplyDeleteLeslie,
ReplyDeleteI hear you on everyone remembering the Aug 6 and 9th events, and also on the old farts - although I'm a member of the club I don't follow the charter :)
Magpie, such interesting comments and information, thank you.
Magpie: Amazingly I had heard that about Kokura and Nagasaki and I vaguely recall the Christian quarter was hit, not that that should make any difference imo.
ReplyDeleteThanks for relating the part of your mother-in-law and the old couple. It adds another dimension and a personal touch.
I can't imagine any Kamakazi pilot wanting that assignment. I think if that had been me, I would have been screaming more than "momma." I also think if I had seen the flash, I would have died of a heart attack right there on the spot.
I believe I was in the 6th grade when we were assigned a paper to write and I decided on Hiroshima - probably because of all those silly drills where we had to climb under desks - as if that was going to "save" us. Anyway, I guess I'm still drawn to that horrific incident along with the Holocaust. Man's inhumanity to man.
It's quite clear to me that the reason for dropping the bombs on Japan was to show off our new toy to the Russians. The only condition the Japanese wanted was to preserve the Empreror. When we accepted their unconditional surrender we allowed the to preserve the Emperor.
ReplyDeleteJesus, how can one trivialize the callous, horrific slaughters of over 200,000 people and the potential to destroy the planet in a more disdainful manner than “A royal straight flush?”
ReplyDeleteWell, I tend to agree with you guys. Infidel has a slightly different take, and while I may not completely agree with him here, I always respect his opinion.
ReplyDeletehttp://infidel753.blogspot.com/2010/08/hiroshima-another-view.html
Not gonna go there Leslie, got enough aggravation without hearing Infidel has found a way to blame Hiroshima and Nagasaki on Muslims.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me Ms.Leslie, this for Boomer Bob's reaction .... JZS,How can we triavilize hoorific and callous "slaughter's", etc ... you must be kidding here? This is reality ... when you have war, you have human's die ... if someone is going to try to invade you, or an attempt even like Pearl Harbour ... you respond. I'll tell you what can be hoorific to all of us .... the mentality that the human race at this point or past point in history is a loving fair species. As for Mr.Oso .... I dont see at all where Mr.Infidel is laying blame on muslim's of Hiroshima or Nagasaki ... not at all ... but that's just my view. Look at human history if you want to see real uncalloused action's of the species .... humnaity now, is "LESS" violent than it ever was in history, rest assured.
ReplyDeleteThank You ....
Oso: If you don't go there, you don't know what he wrote, so it really isn't fair to attack him or his post. And I'm not real comfortable with criticizing a fellow progressive on another's blog - a conservative is a different matter. You can chew 'em up and spit 'em out for all I care. Infidel is quite knowlegeable and I have a lot of respect for him whether or not I agree with him.
ReplyDeleteRC: We were attacked in WWII and the Japanese government was lying to our government up until the day they bombed Pearl Harbor. I have no problems, of course, with the U.S. retaliating. I do have a problem with bombing a civilian population when there is so much evidence showing that the war was going to end within a few weeks anyway. I do not see how bombing civilians can save thousands of our military lives.